The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

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The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:17 am

Hi Guys,

Iím new to this chat line itís great to be here!

I must advise everyone that I am a Christian and I was hoping to learn about Islam. I have a question regarding the BibleÖ

I have heard it said the Prophet Mohammed as been prophesied in the Bible as one liked onto Moses. One thing Iím confused about is if itís been ruled out the Bible is corrupt then why would these prophesies carry weight?

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:03 am

Hello Carlos and welcome to Islam chat forum.

I will do my best to answer your question.

First, Muslims believe in the same God that the Jews and Christians believe in. And we do believe in all prophets and in all the original scriptures that they brought. .
Second, to Muslims Jesus was a prophet who came with the same message as Muhammad (peace be upon them all ). And his disciples wrote down what he preached into physical form. And it was humans' responsibility to preserve what Jesus came with. But when people failed in their duty, the holy Quran came into existence to correct what people changed in the bible.
So, we do believe in the original scripture , which the bible scholars believe is no longer extant, and it mentinoed the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. As for the bible the Christians are reading now, we believe it has been changed.
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:12 am

Hi Elm,

Thanks for replying;

Thatís an interesting response, so how do Muslims ascertain which parts of the Bible have been corrupt and which parts have been preserved in its original text?

For example the following text is taken from the Old Testament Isaiah 42:1

ĒBehold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.Ē

Some Muslims believe the prophecy relates to the coming of Mohammed; if this is so how do you know for sure which passages have been corrupt and which have not been corrupt?

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:09 am


Hi Elm,

Thanks for replying;

Thatís an interesting response, so how do Muslims ascertain which parts of the Bible have been corrupt and which parts have been preserved in its original text?

For example the following text is taken from the Old Testament Isaiah 42:1

ĒBehold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.Ē

Some Muslims believe the prophecy relates to the coming of Mohammed; if this is so how do you know for sure which passages have been corrupt and which have not been corrupt?


It's my pleasure to answer you, Carlos.

But first, I would not use the word "corrupt" , because the Bible is mentioned in the Quran, that all muslims believe in.

To answer your question, we judge by the Quran and the Sunnah (the prophet muhammad's recorded actions and sayings )
1-If there is something mentioned in the Bible that is already in the Quran and the Sunnah, then we accept and believe it.
2-If there is something in the Bible that goes against and contradicts what is in the Quran and the Sunnah, then we reject it.
3-But if there is something mentioned in the Bible that is not against nor in the Quran and the Sunnah, then we don't accept nor reject. Because we don't know if it is true or not.


Last edited by Elm on Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:04 am

Hi Elm,

What I mean by corrupt is the original text has been manipulated; obviously I donít share this view Iím trying to understand your point of view.

To say the Bible is not the same today as it was 2000 years ago is something to be considered very seriously and carefully; we need to know by whom it was corrupt when it was corrupt and for what purpose.

The above quote I mentioned by Isaiah Christians interpret as a prophecy referring the coming of Jesus. Muslims believe itís a reference to Mohammed. If we have differences in opinion regarding its meaning then how would you know for sure if that passage has been changed and most importantly where is the original text? It would be impossible to change every single Bible circulated throughout the world.

The reason why I am pointing this out is because Iím not convinced it has not been changed and it may be an excuse to accommodate the writings of the Quran.

Of course I say this with all respectÖI look forward to hear from you soon.

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:52 am

Carlos wrote:Hi Elm,

What I mean by corrupt is the original text has been manipulated; obviously I donít share this view Iím trying to understand your point of view.

To say the Bible is not the same today as it was 2000 years ago is something to be considered very seriously and carefully; we need to know by whom it was corrupt when it was corrupt and for what purpose.

The above quote I mentioned by Isaiah Christians interpret as a prophecy referring the coming of Jesus. Muslims believe itís a reference to Mohammed. If we have differences in opinion regarding its meaning then how would you know for sure if that passage has been changed and most importantly where is the original text? It would be impossible to change every single Bible circulated throughout the world.

The reason why I am pointing this out is because Iím not convinced it has not been changed and it may be an excuse to accommodate the writings of the Quran.

Of course I say this with all respectÖI look forward to hear from you soon.

so you are saying "corrupted" to refer to the people who changed the bible . Yes, I understand. Thank you. And by the way, I am enjoying this discussing with you because what I want is to find what we agree on and to clarify the things that we disagree on.


While reading what you said about the bible , a question came to mind ,which will lead to a long discussion... who wrote the bible?
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:25 am

Hi Elm,

I enjoy these discussions too I find them stimulating and educational perhaps through this we can learn more from each other.

The Bible was not written by one author but a series of authors. There are 72 books complied in the Bible all believed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:10 am

The Bible was not written by one author but a series of authors. There are 72 books complied in the Bible all believed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So the holy spirit inspired these authors to write the bible which means that these authors were not ordinary people but rather prophets. So were they prophets and if so how do we prove they were?
and these authors wrote 72 books compiled in the bible. So..when were the books written? and are they the same? I mean they do not have contradictions?
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:39 am

The Bible was written over the course of approx. 1500 years starting from the Old Testament to the Gospels. We know all authors to be inspired by the Holy Spirit because each complied book compliment one another and all point to Christ. There are no Contradictions in the Bible.

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:17 am

Carlos wrote:The Bible was written over the course of approx. 1500 years starting from the Old Testament to the Gospels. We know all authors to be inspired by the Holy Spirit because each complied book compliment one another and all point to Christ. There are no Contradictions in the Bible.

Ok Carlos, but you did not say who these authors were. So can you please tell me who they were ? and how'd you know it was written 1500 years ago?
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:50 am

Here is a brief summary of the authors of the Bible:

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Joshua = Joshua - 1350 B.C.
Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel = Samuel / Nathan / Gad - 1000 - 900 B.C.
1 Kings, 2 Kings = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah = Ezra - 450 B.C.
Esther = Mordecai - 400 B.C.
Job = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Psalms = several different authors, mostly David - 1000 - 400 B.C.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon = Solomon - 900 B.C.
Isaiah = Isaiah - 700 B.C.
Jeremiah, Lamentations = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
Ezekiel = Ezekiel - 550 B.C.
Daniel = Daniel - 550 B.C.
Hosea = Hosea - 750 B.C.
Joel = Joel - 850 B.C.
Amos = Amos - 750 B.C.
Obadiah = Obadiah - 600 B.C.
Jonah = Jonah - 700 B.C.
Micah = Micah - 700 B.C.
Nahum = Nahum - 650 B.C.
Habakkuk = Habakkuk - 600 B.C.
Zephaniah = Zephaniah - 650 B.C.
Haggai = Haggai - 520 B.C.
Zechariah = Zechariah - 500 B.C.
Malachi = Malachi - 430 B.C.
Matthew = Matthew - A.D. 65
Mark = John Mark - A.D. 67
Luke = Luke - A.D. 68
John = John - A.D. 90
Acts = Luke - A.D. 65
Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon = Paul - A.D. 50-70
James = James - A.D. 45
1 Peter, 2 Peter = Peter - A.D. 60
1 John, 2 John, 3 John = John - A.D. 90
Jude = Jude - A.D. 60
Revelation = John - A.D. 90

The original manuscripts of the Old Testament have been preserved and analysed. Sources have confirmed the dates are correct and authentic.

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:47 pm

Hello Carlos
Thank you for bringing me the list of the bible's authors.
First, I want you to know that I do not mean to put you or any other Christian down. This is a matter of faith. And as a Muslim, it is my duty to tell what is in the Quran.
I do believe in the Holy books sent to Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus that you believe in as well. So me and you agree on this. But what we do not agree on now is whether the bible is the same. So we want to know if it was changed or not.

A holy book is holy because it is from God. And you only see God's words in a holy book. And words from God has no mistakes or contradictions. Also, God is the only speaker in a holy book. And this is what you will find in the Quran. It is God' words, the Speaker is God, and there are no contradictions or mistakes.
As for books written by humans, the authenticity of a book is from its writer. I have to know who brought me a certain text . For example, Muslims do not accept any hadith (saying or action) of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as authentic unless it has a chain of known and trustworthy narrators.


In the bible that exists now which you believe is holy and that it was not changed , there are words of God, words of prophets, and words of historians. Anyone can notice that.
So there are words written by people whom you said were inspired by the holy spirit. But who were they? You gave me a list of first names. Authors of the old testament and the new testament. But there is no proof that those were really the authors. So how can I know that those were the authors?

You said that the old scriptures are preserved and not changed. After reading , searching and thinking about what you said, there are things that I have noticed :


First:
The number of times the torah is mentioned in the torah and its additional books is limited. Also no one knows what happened to the torah.
The Jews mentioned that Moses wrote God's laws and asked people to put it by the side of the ark.

"Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. (Deuteronomy 31:26)

When Solomon opened the ark, he found nothing but the two tables of stone.
"There was nothing in the ark except the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." 1 Kings 8:9
So where is the original torah? You said it is preserved. And if it was found later then there must be proof.


Second:.
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. Jeremiah 8:8
This verse says clearly that the Jews would change God's laws. But you said it is not changed. How can I say it is not changed when it is mentioned in the bible that people would change it?

There are other things that I have found which makes it clear that people changed God's words.
I will stop here. And hope we disucss with an open mind and heart.
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:17 am

Hi Elm,

Of course we are agreed that our intention is to have a friendly discussion dealing with the differences between our different faiths and hopefully we can learn from each other by discussing them.

Iím not quite sure what you mean by your question how we know for sure the authors that I listed are the true authors? Itís like asking how do we know for sure that it was Shakespeare who wrote Hamlet. How do we know if it was really Albert Einstein who wrote the theory of relativity not someone else? How do you know it was the prophet Mohammed himself that dictated his words to the writer of the Quran? None of us were there to witness it so how do we know it to be true?

What I meant by saying the Torah had been preserved I meant the Torah had been copied by scholars in Hebrew and Greek. Your right in saying the original Torah written by Moses is not with us today. The Torah had been copied word from word for the Priests and teachers to use. It was necessary for them to be copied and distributed so all were taught the word of God in the synagogues. History tells us a Torah was always found in Temples and synagogues where ever you went.

An interesting discovery was made in 1947. The Dead Sea scrolls were found; they contained heavy material dealing with the Torah and various other books of the Bible. Whatís striking is archaeologists agree these scrolls date back to 100 BC and whatís even more striking they have compared to whatís found in the Bible today and found they are the same they have not been changed.

You quoted for me Jeremiah 8:8 Iím glad you have an open mind. When studying a passage from the Bible you must always study the context (what was written before and after the passage) in order to translate the meaning. It simply means the Jews during that time had become a great nation but they neglected the precepts; therefore the law had become vain to them. They boosted about themselves being a wise nation their pride was the cause of their downfall, they began the sin so it did not matter whether the law written down was right or wrong they did not obey them; it does not literally mean the law written down was a lie. That was the point the prophet Jeremiah was trying to get across to the people.

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:28 pm

Iím not quite sure what you mean by your question how we know for sure the authors that I listed are the true authors? Itís like asking how do we know for sure that it was Shakespeare who wrote Hamlet. How do we know if it was really Albert Einstein who wrote the theory of relativity not someone else? How do you know it was the prophet Mohammed himself that dictated his words to the writer of the Quran? None of us were there to witness it so how do we know it to be true?

When I read a science or a literature book whose writer is not known, I will read and think about what is written. What is written is more important than knowing the writer. .
But when I read a holy book, a book that is from God, a book that if I do not believe in ,I am a disbeliever and I go to hell , a book that tells me what the purpose of my life is, I read and think about what is written and I must know who brought it to me.I do not want to follow blindly. And I am not offending here but I am telling you what I believe So, knowing the one who brought me a holy book is as important as knowing what is written.
The Quran is God's words that were revealed to Muhammad peace be upon him through the angel Gabriel in Arabic, and it is still in its original language. There are no versions and the Quran you see in other languages are just the translations of its meanings .
The only speaker in the Quran is God and there are no mistakes or contradictions in it. God challenges those who may have doubts about the Quran to write a chapter like the ones in the Quran. Many have tried but failed.
There are scientific miracles in the Quran that science just discovered. So how could someone living in a desert who did not read nor write know all that if it was not God's words?
The Quran came to us in memory and in written forms.
The prophet Muhammad's companions wrote down The Quran. And these authors' biographies are known.
As for the prophet's peace be upon him sayings, like I said before, no saying is accepted unless it has isnad (chain of trustworthy narrators).
When I compare it to the bible. The bible was written by authors that we do not know. We have Gospels written by John, Mark, Luke..ok John who? Mark who? Luke who? Why do I have to trust words written by unknown people?
That is what I meant by asking who the authors were. So when reading a holy book written by unknown authors, we have to bear in mind that man may have tampered God's words.
Your right in saying the original Torah written by Moses is not with us today
So you agree with me that the original torah is missing. And that makes one have doubts whether the one that exists now teaches the same thing taught in the original one. Who can answer that? No one.
You quoted for me Jeremiah 8:8 Iím glad you have an open mind. When studying a passage from the Bible you must always study the context (what was written before and after the passage) in order to translate the meaning. It simply means the Jews during that time had become a great nation but they neglected the precepts; therefore the law had become vain to them. They boosted about themselves being a wise nation their pride was the cause of their downfall, they began the sin so it did not matter whether the law written down was right or wrong they did not obey them; it does not literally mean the law written down was a lie. That was the point the prophet Jeremiah was trying to get across to the people.
Sure, we should read about other religions with an open mind.
I read the whole chapter again Carlos. And while reading I kept in mind what you said about the meaning But it is clear cut that the Jews would change it.
Scribe means someone who writes, who copies official documents. And it says the scribes made it into a lie. In other words, they changed it.
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:56 am

Hi Elm,

Bear in mind the Vatican has the details of ALL the writers of the Bible. The original author of the Bible is God; the writers are his instruments so if you really want to know who the author of Bible is its God himself the writers are merely his instruments. I esteem this significance because every couple of centuries a writer has written a prophecy about the Messiah Jesus Christ. There are over 400 prophecies about one man dating back 1500 years before he was born and they all came true. Is that coincidence? I seriously doubt it. Contrary to what Muslims believe there are no prophesies about Mohammed itís actually the opposite to what Jesus preached he warns of future false prophets that will come after him. I say this with all respect of course I am merely stating what we believe.

As I said the original Torah is not with us but it has been copied by scholars during the time of Moses. It would be ridiculous to write just one copy of the Quran as you know have it copied many times over for the distribution amongst the people to read. The same principle applies to the Torah.

How can I be sure the Old Testament we have today is the same as it were many years ago? For starters it agrees with the rest of Bible and secondly as I mentioned earlier the dead sea scrolls were found, the scrolls are 2100 years old and furthermore shows there has been no changes in the Old Testament. That is good enough proof for me to prove the Bible is authentic.

Unfortunately Elm you are not in a position to correctly interpret the passage of Jeremiah to draw your own conclusions. Being a non Muslim myself did you think it would be a good idea if I were to read the Quran on my own without having a Muslim teacher it explain it to me?

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:13 am

As I said you must study the context of the passage. If the message Jeremiah was trying to get across to the people is as you believed it to be then Jeremiah would have stoped following the written law himself; if you read on he does not such thing.

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:13 pm

The original author of the Bible is God; the writers are his instruments so if you really want to know who the author of Bible is its God himself the writers are merely his instruments.
ok Carlos. That means the bible has no contradictions since it is written by God. So could you please explain why there are contradictions in the following verses.

1-How did Judas die?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matthew 27:5)
"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)



2-"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem."2 Kings 24:8
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD".2 Chronicles 36:9



3- "Therefore MICHAL the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death". Samuel 6:23
"But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of MICHAL the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite."2 Samuel 21:8
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:17 am

Hi Elm,

Thanks very much for your replies you have been excellent in participating with this discussion

To answer your quires I first must advise you the main thing to consider the events recorded in the Bible one must first look beyond the literal meaning although it does place high importance; it must be read in terms of the message the author is trying to get across. For example if there was a fire at school and the school students were asked what happen one may say ďthe fire was lit by a matchĒ the other may say ďthe fire was lit by a lighterĒ the main thing was a fire was lit.

I can use the same principle in reading the Quran otherwise it would lead to confusion e.g.

Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.

An answer that gives a different law doesn't resolve the existence of this contradiction.

Ok now for the rebuttals:

1) Both actually, Acts 1:19 tells us that the place where Judas died was called, Akeldama, or the ďfield of bloodĒ. According to the tradition, this filed is located near a cliff. Then the rope snapped he fell headlong, bursting open with all his bowels gushing out.

2) The short answer to the 8 years and the 18 years is that a copyist made a mistake in the version used by the translators. The contradiction is not in the original but only contained in the translations that are sold in book stores today. The Vatican holds the older manuscripts that agree with each other being 18. As I said the main theme behind this historical event is Jehoiachin was young.

3) The daughters of Michal were not her children, but instead were her sister's children that she raised. The Chaldee (and other ancient) version(s) say that "the five sons of Merab which Michal the daughter of Saul brought up, which she brought forth to Adriel..." So whilst she may have raised them as her own, they were not hers biologically.

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:37 pm

Hi Elm,

Thanks very much for your replies you have been excellent in participating with this discussion
thank you too Carlos and so were you.

To answer your quires I first must advise you the main thing to consider the events recorded in the Bible one must first look beyond the literal meaning although it does place high importance; it must be read in terms of the message the author is trying to get across. For example if there was a fire at school and the school students were asked what happen one may say ďthe fire was lit by a matchĒ the other may say ďthe fire was lit by a lighterĒ the main thing was a fire was lit.
Sorry Carlos, this is not accurate.
we are talking about a holy book. You said the original writer is God and the other authors were His instrumenst to convey the message. God chooses people who are perfect in conveying His message.
so whatever reasons you give, I can not accept that.
Each writer wrote something different yet you say consider the literal meaning.
I see a lot of flaws in your answer.
First you agreed with me that the origianl torah is missing and no one knows where it is.But you still believe nothing has changed in the torah.
Second you said the authors are known although you just gave me first names.
Third you said there are no contradictions and the writer of the bible is God. But when I looked, there are words of God and words of people. Also, there are mistakes and contradictions.
God would not choose people who make mistakes in conveying His message.


I can use the same principle in reading the Quran otherwise it would lead to confusion e.g.

Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
Could you please explain to me more ? what are the contradictions exactly?
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:51 am

Hi Elm,

One thing perhaps you arenít aware of unlike most religions we are not a ďpeople of the bookĒ God entrusted his teachings to his Church not solely on the book. The Church preaches through the Bible, Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium (Unity of the Pope and the Bishops). The Bible does not stand alone without the other two.

ďso that you may know how to behave in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.Ē Ė 1 Timothy 3:15


God chooses people who are perfect in conveying His message.

Elm, please read my answers carefully I never said the instruments used i.e. the writers are perfect. They are not perfect as they are only human; they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to convey a message from God. They did it their own unique way. The main thing to point out did Jesus die on a cross? Yes. Does it matter what time he died in the afternoon whether it was 3pm or 6pm? The theme behind the message is Jesus died on a cross. I donít think Mohammed was perfect either otherwise he would not have gotten the following example wrong:

A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property. Mathematically itís incorrect.


You are going on and on about contradictions about the Bible can you show me any? I have already answered you about the Torah read my post. I think its good enough proof the Torah has not been changed proven by the Dead Sea scrolls.

Can you prove the Quran was inspired by God? How do you know Mohammed was truly a prophet what proof do you have is it not only becuase he said so?

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:49 pm

hello Carlos. Hope you're doing good.
The people of a church are humans too and make mistakes and can add things and hide things. Just like the ones who wrote the bible whom you said were not perfect and they were only humans.
Besides ,how could they teach through something that has mistakes. If they are inspired, then they are like the ones who wrote the bible. They were inspired but you said they were humans so they made mistakes in conveying God's message.
But what I know and everybody else does is anything from God has no contradictions and the ones chosen by God to convey His message would be perfect in doing that. They are humans , yes, and they make mistakes but not mistakes in conveying God's message because they fear God , know the truth and would do just what God tells them. God would notchoose anyone.
So something that is divine can NOT have contradictions or mistakes unless people tampered with it. You said it. You said the ones who wrote it were not perfect. Not being perfect means they can make mistakes. So, why can't you agree on that? Why don't you think about it ? you're a Christian so you don't want to accept that. But if you were not a Christian, would you really believe everything you told me about the bible and its authors and mistakes so far?

There are contradictions . And please do not tell me they were just humans and humans make mistakes. Because like I said before, God is the Most Perfect so he would choose people who make no mistakes in "conveying His message".

These are a few of mistakes and contradictions found in the bible. And again, by doing this, I do not want to offend or put anyone down. It's a matter of faith and we want to know what is true.



Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

-God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)

-Satan
did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)


How many fighting men were found in Judah?

-Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

-Four hundred and seventy thousand
(I Chronicles 21:5)

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
-Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)

-Three
(I Chronicles 21:12)

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

-Twenty-two (2[b]Kings 8:26)
-Forty-two (2Chronicles 22:2)

[b]Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?

-After his baptism, the spirit immediately drove
him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ...(Mark 1:12-13)
-Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected twodisciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee ..two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)

Was baby Jesus life threatened in Jerusalem?
-Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
-No. The family fled nowhere. They calmlypresented the child at the Jerusalem templeaccording to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)



For the verses you quoted from the Quran.
There is no mathematics in the Quran. This is just guideline to how inheritance is divided. But it does not tell how. Juts like prayer. The Quran mentions prayer is a must. But it does not tell how. So we know how from the sunnah. (the second source of islam)
To read more on the explanation of the verses you quoted, Iwill send you an answer by PM if you want. Because it is kinda long to have it in this discussion.

How do I know Muhammad peace be upon him was perfect?

No contradictions or mistakes in the Quran. And I told you before
how I know the Quran is God's words.
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:12 am

Hi Elm,

Iím well thanks,

Ok the first rebuttal. When I said the writers are not perfect I meant as humans yes they are imperfect but in conveying Godís message there are no flaws. If you want to be a literalist in reading the Bible then I can also be a literalist in reading the Quran and reject your answer regarding the rules for dividing the estate looking at it face value it has nothing to do with prayer only distribution of wealth. I can also point out the following contradictions in the Quran:

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
A. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
B. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
C. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
D. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
E. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
A. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
B. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
C. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
D. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).

3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
A. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
B. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
C. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
A. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
B. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
A. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
B. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
C. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
D. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
A. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
B. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

We can spend all our time pointing out contradictions I would rather turn away from pointing alleged contradictions in either books and discuss the main core. The thing I really donít understand is it is a undeniable FACT Jesus died on the cross it has been recorded in history not just by Christians but pagans too and all of a sudden one man comes along 600 years later who cannot read or write and said itís a lie basically calling most of the world a liar where is the proof for such an accusation?

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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Elm on Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:49 pm

Hello Carlos


Ok the first rebuttal. When I said the writers are not perfect I meant as humans yes they are imperfect but in conveying Godís message there are no flaws. If you want to be a literalist in reading the Bible then I can also be a literalist in reading the Quran and reject your answer regarding the rules for dividing the estate looking at it face value it has nothing to do with prayer only distribution of wealth
When I asked why each writer had a different story, you said they were just humans and they made mistakes. And you gave me that example of some fire in a school. So you admitted that there were mistakes, but now you are changing your words. Smile
There are no contradictions in the Quran.
The bible has different unknown writers and each had different information about the "same" thing.
The quran is God's words and there are no contradictions.

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
A. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
B. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
C. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
D. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
E. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

Would there be contradictions if I say cake is made from flour, sugar, eggs, etc?Or would it be just telling you what cake is made from?The Quran tells you what man is made from.
The blood of all living creatures is composed of 55 percent plasma, which in turn is composed of more than 90 percent water. As opposed to 1400 centuries ago when the Qur'an was first revealed by God, today it is a well known fact that the major "ingredient" in the human body is water It is further very well known that mankind is made from "dust" (when you place his body in the grave and leave it for a number of years, and the water evaporates, what form does his body revert to? Further, what is "clay"? Is it not a special form of water and dust? It is equally obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.
Even non-Muslims scientists were amazed to find this in the Quran.
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
A. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
B. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
C. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
D. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
You just picked out of the context, and I don't know if you read the whole passage. And by the way, there is something called tafseer (Commentary or explanation) that you need to read when reading the Quran to make it easier and to tell you why a certain verse or chapter was revealed although the Quran is clear and easy to understand.
Anyway,
back to the verses you quoted.
You first quoted from the chapter called albaqarah (the cow) which says no compulsion in religion. And you asked if there's compulsion in religion.(And yes, there is no compulsion in religion) Then you quoted other verses from another chapter (repentance ) and you said it contradicts .But you picked 9:3, 9:5, 9:6 and then 9:29. So you just picked what you wanted.And left the verses 1,2 and 4.
Just like what I can do with this verse "O you who believe, do not approach prayer while being drunk, until you become able to know what you say" I can pick what I want, like this " O you who believe, do not approach prayer" And say,we don't have to pray. This happens when you take something out of a context.
Before we see the verses from the beginning, the chapter talks a lot about hypocrites.
Let's see what the verses say.




1-[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.2-So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace
the disbelievers 3-And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if yourepent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.4-Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous[who fear Him].5. And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
6-And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he
may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.



After polytheists breached treaties with Muslims many times, and if you read the whole chapter, it talks about hypocrites . The verses in the chapter were revealed. But you just quoted out of the context.
The chapter starts with a declaration of freedom from all obligations from Allah and his messenger to polytheists who had treaties with Muslims.
They were asked to leave.And if they didn't, then Muslims had the right to fight them since they lived under Islamic states. But forthose who kept their treaties, they could stay.
I think it is clear now. It doesnít say attack others ormake them Muslims.
Some polytheists did not keep treaties. So either they left or they had to be fought to leave. . It is fair. So please read the whole chapter to understand it. It talks about certain people .




3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
A. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
B. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
C. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

What does the word islam mean?
It means submitting to, surrendering to ,and obeying God.
If you look up the word muslim or islam in an Arabic dictionary, you will find that this is one of its meanings. Allah prophets came with the same message and they were all muslim,smeaning, they submitted , surrendered and obeyed one God. But when talking about Muhammad and why the religion he came with is called islam. Other prophets came to certain people. Judaism refers to certain people, Jews, and christianty refers to Christ's followers ,Christians although the message was the same and that is submession and surrendering and obeying God. For Muhammad peace be upon him, he came for all mankind. So no certain name is giving to the religion of God.




4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
A. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:4. Also 4:116
B. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
Allah forgives all sins except polytheism which we call shirk in Arabic. But if one repents before death, they are forgiven. Of course this is by the will and mercy of Allah.
So the Jews in the verse you quoted were forgiven because they repented. You can read about that with more explanation in chapter 7.

5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
A. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
B. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
C. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
D. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).


Abrogation took place during the prophet's time. And it was mercy to mankind because had God
started out with the command to not drink, not kill, not commit adultery, notsteal, not lie, not eat pork, pray five times, fast the month of Ramadan, perform pilgrimage, etc. then not too many people
would have accepted His commandand most of them would have been destined for the fire. However, out of His mercy He presented them with these regulations gradually.And if you read
carefully, you will see the basic tents and beliefs can not be abrogated.

It's just If a verse has been abrogated, this means that the legal ruling given by the verse has been
replaced by another legal ruling. So, we can no longer apply the abrogated
ruling. But, the verse remains part of the Qurí‚n and may be recited in prayer.
[/size][/size]
6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
A. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
B. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
The Pharaohand his hosts were drowned. But Allah saved the body like it's mentioned in the verse and I quote here
This day shall We save thee in the body
the body of the Pharaoh
as a sign to those who come after him. The most relevant explanation here would be that the body of the Pharaoh washed ashore and his folks embalmed him.
There are no contradictions in any of the verses you quoted.
We can spend all our time pointing out contradictions I would rather turn away from pointing alleged contradictions in either books and discuss the main core. The thing I really donít understand is it is a undeniable FACT Jesus died on the cross it has been recorded in history not just by Christians but pagans too and all of a sudden one man comes along 600 years later who cannot read or write and said itís a lie basically calling most of the world a liar where is the proof for such an accusation?
It's not about my religion is better than yours. It's a matter of faith. When I showed the mistakes in the bible, it was not to put you or anyone else down, like I said before. It's just something I saw but you don't seem to see. As for the verses you quoted from the Quran and said they have contradcitions to make it look like what I said about the mistakes in the bible. There are no contradictions.It's just some verses were picked out of the context. But in the bible, each writer had a different story about the SAME thing.
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Rahamim on Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:19 pm

I'm a christian and I'd like to join the discussion too. Smile English is not my native language so just excuse me if I make any mistakes in grammar.

Elm pointed out there seems to be a contradiction between Matthew 2 and Luke 2. I'll cite it:


Was baby Jesus life threatened in Jerusalem?
-Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
-No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)


You can read an answer to this at this website:
http://bibleillustration.blogspot.com/2007/11/nazareth-or-egypt.html

Another allaged contradiction which Elm presented is this.

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
-After his baptism, the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ...(Mark 1:12-13)
-Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected twodisciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee ..two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)


The truth is that Jesus' calling of the first disciples and going to Galilee and being at the wedding feast happened after the forty day wilderness episode. If you read the 1 John account carefully, you will notice that John does not baptize Jesus in that account but rather recounts his baptism and bears witness of what he saw (the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus after he was baptized). This is from the Gospel of Mark:

Mark 1
[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
[11] And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
[12] And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
[13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

And this is from the Gospel of John (and happened after those forty days):

[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[30] This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[31] And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
[32] And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. John recounts the baptism of Jesus which had taken place earlier. It doesn't say, 'then John baptized Jesus'.
[33] And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
[35] Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
[36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! Notice how John says this again. It is further proof John did not baptize Jesus the day earlier. This was just another day. As the forerunner of the Messiah he bore witness of the Him as usual.
[37] And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. And so on.

So it is not a contradiction, but it's about understanding the context and the meaning of the text.

I also want to clear up this passage which Elm pointed out.


Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
-God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
-Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)


The answer is simple. This came from the hand of God, it was part of his plan and he allowed satan to incite David to count the men. God can use satan as a weapon of his wrath. If you read the book of Job you'll see how God orchestrated Job's trial by letting satan wreak havoc in his life. It was allowed by God to fulfill His purposes.

The following passages though have clear contradictions in them and I'm not denying there is an apparent contradiction in them.


How many fighting men were found in Judah?
-Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
-Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
...
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
-Twenty-two (2Kings 8:26)
-Forty-two (2Chronicles 22:2)


I believe that while the Bible is the ultimate written revelation of God, not everything in it has been inspired by the Holy Spirit. I do realize that there is also human input in it. The books where these passages are found are jewish historical books. I believe God has led the writers in writing them, but I don't think there is a reason why he should have given us a fully inspired record of jewish history. These contradictions could be a human error made by the original writers or they could be copyist errors that came when the texts were copied time after time. You can ask religious jews too and they will almost certainly tell you that even though they believe in the Tanach as Holy Scripture they still recognize human input in them. For example if you read the historical books of Ezra and Nehemiah there is not once said that they are of divine origin. Same goes for the apocryphal books of 1 and 2 Maccabees. They are apochryphal books (that is, they are not in the Bible), but they are an extensive document of jewish history, and the fulfilment of many prophecies of the book of Daniel can be seen taking place in the happenings mentioned there. Without the historical books of the Old testament (even though they are not perfect) the Bible would seem somehow lacking. The historical books are different from the Torah (Tawrat) or the books of the prophets in that they were not fully inspired whereas these were. Jesus himself said that not one jot or tittle from the Law (Torah/Tawrat) would pass away till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

You can take for example this passage from one of the letters of Paul. Paul is addressing Timothy:

2 Tim 4
[13] The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

In his closing section of the letter he gives practical commands to Timothy. This is part of the Holy Scripture, but there is no reason to think this word of Paul was a divine command of God to Timothy. Smile Jesus had anointed Paul (and all the apostles) with a powerful apostolic anointing of the Holy Spirit. When he taught, he was working in that anointing and everything he taught was accurate. The Lord himself has spoken to us through the apostles. While Jesus Christ is the only foundation of the Church, the apostles are the pillars on that foundation. Jesus had promised to send his Holy Spirit to dwell in his followers and to guide them into all truth. And he kept his promise. Smile

Have you heard about the Septuagint (also know as LXX)? It's an ancient greek translation of the hebrew Old testament. I don't know exactly when it was written but something like 300 years before Christ. To say that the hebrew Old testament was changed after that is very unrealistic. The jews (which were zealous in preserving the Scriptures anyway) would have had to get hold of all the then existing hebrew Bible texts AND all the greek translations and alter them BOTH. It is absolutely unrealistic if not impossible (it practically is). And then there are the Qumran scrolls. They date back to 100 BC. This leaves no possibility for any altering to take place. There are over 300 prophecies about Jesus Christ in the Old testament, and it's impossible to claim they were added there afterwards, in light of the evidence.

This is my two cents on the subject. Hope I didn't make too many grammatical mistakes. Smile

Rahamim
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

Post by Carlos on Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:46 am

Hi Elm,

All writers of the Bible are known I gave you a list. Like I said earlier the details of each writer are kept at the Vatican library. Iíll just repeat that ALL writers of the Bible ARE known I gave you a list. The details of each writer are kept at the Vatican library.

Also my friend upon reading the Bible particular the gospels; the gospels are 4 accounts of what was witnessed if anything it proves all the more of what really happen because 4 different writers are giving 4 different accounts of the same thing. Like I said in my post earlier does it really matter if one passage says Jesus died at 3 pm while another passage says he died 6pm? What matters is Jesus DID died on the cross.

I would like to ask what proof do you have that Mohammed was a prophet? You said for starters the Quran has no contradictions. Thatís not a good enough excuse many different books and novels all over the have no contradictions in them either. How do you know for sure Mohammed is a prophet from God?

Carlos
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Re: The Bible and the Prohesies fortelling the coming of the Prophet Mohamed

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